Daphné Du Barry:

What is beauty?

Daphné Du Barry: 00:12

What is beauty? I think beauty, Dostoyevsky said so. You know, you hear we can’t live without beauty. Beauty will save the world. And then according to Plato, it is the splendor of truth, harmony, perfect proportions and the balance of shapes.

Daphné Du Barry: 00:32

And Dosto Jetsko would say, beauty shall save the world. And I think so too. We can’t live without art, without beauty. It’s impossible. Any art, you know, can be also a singer, an opera singer.

Daphné Du Barry: 00:45

All the arts are connected.

Sarah Monk: 00:53

Hi. This is Sarah with another episode of Materially Speaking, where artists tell their stories through the materials they choose. Today, I’m meeting Dutch sculptor Daphné Du Barry in Pietrasanta. Daphne’s studios are tucked away a short walk from the central Piazza Duomo, home to the Church of San Martino, which dates back to 12/23. The majestic church has three marble adorned naves and is decorated with marble bass reliefs of the crucifixion, the deposition and the resurrection.

Sarah Monk: 01:27

As I enter Daphne’s studio, we come through an elegant room with a small round table, a treasured photograph of Daphne with her late husband, and a joyful vase of flowers. Then we step into her high ceiling studio where she starts her creations. Around us are many clay models, some covered with plastic to keep them moist, and bronze statues in the figurative style, for which she is so well known. And as we sit down, right next to us is a bronze model of D’Artagnan, the famous musketeer, on a horse rearing up on its hind legs. I asked Daphne to introduce herself.

Daphné Du Barry: 02:11

My name is Daphne Dubery. I was married to Jean Claude, a noble man from Gascony. I met him at Salvador Dali’s home in Spain and that was love at first sight. Jean Claude was art critic, and he wrote about artists, journalists. And for me, perfect to have an art critic because he could, you know, see everything with his eyes, and I liked to be criticized in a positive way, which makes you grow.

Daphné Du Barry: 02:53

So that was a perfect match. I had a girlfriend, Spanish. From time to time, Dali would call her to pose, and she called me up. She said, why don’t you come with me? I’m going to have tea at Salvador Dali’s home.

Daphné Du Barry: 03:09

And I said, well, why not? You know? I didn’t really know him that well. And I was in my twenties. I thought it was very exciting.

Daphné Du Barry: 03:19

So I went there with this friend, Carmen, and then I met Jean Claude, my future husband, because he was there at that moment at the house of Dali. And that’s how our beautiful love affair started. I was born in Holland. I studied in Holland. After high school, I definitely definitely left Holland.

Daphné Du Barry: 03:46

I studied one year in Switzerland. I studied in Germany at the school for translators. And then I went to Canada, Montreal, where I started at McGill’s University. I think we are born with talents. I speak seven languages.

Daphné Du Barry: 04:06

I read. I I I write them. It’s I mean, we’re we’re born with talents, you know, and I’m spoiled because God gave me many talents, which is very useful, you know. So then I came back to Europe, then I wanted to study since I was a child. Like, at seven years old, I had my guitar, I would compose songs, I would play, you know, I’ve been singing all my life.

Daphné Du Barry: 04:34

So when I was a child, I thought to myself, you shall be a singer, which I was. So I came back to Europe. I did a few years at the Sorbonne, modern literature. Then I did four years at the Conservatoire for classical music while I was soprano. And in the meantime, I met Jean Claude.

Daphné Du Barry: 04:54

And, you know, during about fifteen years of my life, I would see Dali this summer in in Caracasse, Podigat, as well as his house and his studio. And since Jean Claude had this work of, you know, writing about artists, so that was really, for me, extraordinary because with all those travels, we would visit museums and that’s the best way, you know, to study, I think, with the old masters.

Sarah Monk: 05:20

Did you model also for

Daphné Du Barry: 05:22

Dali? Yes. Yes, of course.

Sarah Monk: 05:24

Yes. And how was it working with him?

Daphné Du Barry: 05:26

Dali was very funny, you know. He would have an idea, of course, like we all have artists. We have an idea, we use a model, but then, of course, you you transform them all. Sometimes Dali, he he would transform me, for example, in a fish. He made a book and he would make me how do you call that?

Daphné Du Barry: 05:46

In a

Sarah Monk: 05:48

A mermaid.

Daphné Du Barry: 05:50

Like a mermaid. But and and that was really you know, Dali was a real genius, you know. So that was a very interesting master in philosophy also. He had a philosophy of life. You know what the thing is with Dali?

Daphné Du Barry: 06:03

He loved beauty, of course, in Dali’s home. There were always models, the beautiful girls, boys. You can’t imagine the beauty of those young models that Dali required for his paintings. And at the same time, Dali was very much interested in science. You know, Paris, I met Craig and Watson, you know.

Daphné Du Barry: 06:27

The funny thing is when they talk about the how do call it? DNA. And Dali would take out a a drawing from his pocket. He said, well, I thought this before you. And he showed the drawing.

Daphné Du Barry: 06:38

He drew this, you know? Yes. Through the He said, I have thought about it before you. That was Dali, you know. Very often, Leonardo da Vinci, big artists, they see things before, you know, in advance.

Daphné Du Barry: 06:54

Like Leonardo with his airplanes, he thought about it, you know. We could not even imagine that once we would have those flying machines in the air, you know. Can you imagine? So, that’s what those geniuses give us, you know. They see much more in advance than we.

Daphné Du Barry: 07:11

So that was the beautiful thing about Dali, a huge culture, very much interested also in science because it’s important science. Very important. Then I started to work with leather. I did huge leather sculptures. I did a pieta for a cathedral.

Daphné Du Barry: 07:29

I did Klaus Kinsky playing, you know, when he did this movie about Paganini, and then he posed for me, and I did his statue in leather. And that was another period in my life. How do you work with leather arms? Well, you it’s it’s very special because you need a support, which is, of course, a plaster of pears, but very hard plaster of pears, like almost like marble, you know, like stone. And then with that, you put the drapery on top of it, but, of course, you have to put it in a way that it looks like almost a wooden sculpture.

Daphné Du Barry: 08:07

For example, my in the Cathedral Of Arche in Gascony. When you see it, you know, it looks like a sculpture of the Renaissance, like wood. And it’s very particular, very interesting. But, of course, you can’t put it outside because if not, you know, it would well, it doesn’t it doesn’t get ruined, but the thing is the patina. Of course, I made patina because the leather, it’s it’s it’s an untreated leather, you know.

Daphné Du Barry: 08:39

It’s without any color. It looks like a champagne color. And then you have to to treat it and to to to paint it. I use special colors. So, well, that was a period, my leather stature.

Daphné Du Barry: 08:50

So I just started again. I met this Hungarian master. Tell me about the Hungarian master. He said, oh, well, that’s beautiful, your leather sculptures, the real art is bronze and marble and wood. I said, okay, no problem.

Daphné Du Barry: 09:05

So he said, now you must study drawing. So I came to his studio and he said, oh, you really have talent because I said, well, you know, if think it’s not worth it, don’t worry, you know, it’s okay for me. He said, no, no, you have talent. Have talent. So, you know, I started for three years to study drawing with him, anatomy, metrology, you know, the study of the muscles, skeleton, you know, very important.

Daphné Du Barry: 09:28

Then, at the same time, I met my Italian master, also in Paris, because I had a studio in Paris, Marcello Tomasi, and he saw my drawings, often tested, but you have to come to my studio in Italy. You know? And that’s how it started, you know, from one thing to another. Everything is connected anyway, you know? So and it was like a vocation and then I started, oh my god, with such a passion, you know?

Daphné Du Barry: 09:53

You can’t imagine.

Sarah Monk: 09:54

But your first commission was

Daphné Du Barry: 09:57

Religious. Yes. Exactly. And maybe the last one will be who knows? My first monumental statue was for Reims.

Daphné Du Barry: 10:07

I did the baptism of Clovis by Saint Remy, and that was in 1996. We celebrated the fifteen hundred years of the baptism of Clovis, first Catholic king of France. He converted. And and then that’s when I met John Paul the second, the pope. He invited me first to the Vatican and I showed him the small model of the future monument, which he approved.

Daphné Du Barry: 10:41

Then I did the monument which was inaugurated by the Pope John Paul the second in 1996. It was my first huge monument. Fantastic. Then I did Christ on the cross for the church of Monaco, which prince Rainier would ask me to realize. And John the Baptist for Malta.

Daphné Du Barry: 11:03

And I did for the casinos of Monte Carlo, the lady fortune, you know, the fortune was the horn of abundance. And she’s blind because you never know when the fortune arrives and when it goes. You know? So when the people go to gamble, they touch, you know, the the horn of abundance and all the coins that come out, golden coins, and, you know, to symbolize, you know, the fortune. Everybody wants, you know, to to become fortunate in a way.

Daphné Du Barry: 11:35

It can be in a material way, can be in a spiritual way. You know? It arrives I always say it arrives with the legs of what do you call those animals that have their house on their Oh, tortoise. Turtle. It arrives with the feet of the turtle, and it runs away with the the feet of a little pa, you know, very fast.

Daphné Du Barry: 11:54

You can lose your fortune very quickly. Can we talk about your faith or religion? Absolutely. I was working on Marie Madeline, you know? Marie Madeline.

Daphné Du Barry: 12:06

Yes. And I didn’t really succeed, and I got so angry. And so I would cry, you know, like that up to the to heaven. Say, why don’t you help me? And I got his help.

Daphné Du Barry: 12:21

And, of course, Jean Claude was Catholic, but he he would never force me. You know, I mean, he he very much respected my way of, well, my philosophy in life. Of course, I had faith, but, you know, faith in what? You know? I would have studied anything, you know, Buddhism and Zen and this and that, you know, and and nothing did really satisfy me.

Daphné Du Barry: 12:43

And at that moment, when I got this piece inside and I made a very beautiful statue, I said, well, this is a real sign. And then I I I converted very quickly, but I was very much prepared because living Europe is a Christian well, all Europe is Christian, you know. Wherever you go, you you find our cathedrals, our churches, our public places, they are filled up, you know, with saints and with Christ and Holy Mary and, you know, it’s full of it. It’s our culture whether you have faith or not, but still it’s our culture. So, when you are surrounded by others, it it it it has it leaves a trace.

Daphné Du Barry: 13:31

It influences you totally, all this beauty, you know, that surrounds us. All that you are looking at, it’s all been created for love of God because all those artists in the Renaissance, they had a huge faith, you know. When you create something, it transcends the person that looks at a painting or or a sculpture, sculpture and it’s been done with that spirit, you bring something more into this artwork. It’s not only material. It’s not only horizontal.

Daphné Du Barry: 14:07

You have this transcendency. That’s very important. I became Catholic, and that was extraordinary for me. My my life changed. I’m I’m the same person, of course, but it it brought light and stability and hope and, well, something that is very personal, of course.

Daphné Du Barry: 14:31

But it’s important to bring light to this world. We need it. And beauty, so important. You know, I am reading this, for example, what is beauty? I think beauty Dostoyevsky said so.

Daphné Du Barry: 14:45

You know, you we can’t live without beauty. Beauty will save the world. And then according to Plato, it is the splendor of truth, harmony, perfect proportions and the balance of shapes. And Dostoevsky would say, beauty shall save the world. And I think so too.

Daphné Du Barry: 15:06

We can’t live without art, without beauty. It’s impossible. Any art, you know, can be also a singer, an opera singer, you know, all the arts are connected, you know. So that’s very important.

Sarah Monk: 15:21

How was it for you meeting the pope at such a

Daphné Du Barry: 15:23

young age? Fabulous. Fabulous because, well, John Paul the second, you know, when when I first met him, I could only feel this tremendous love. It was a person who would, you know, right away you feel at ease and this love, you know, amazingly. Very you you can’t really describe it.

Daphné Du Barry: 15:47

He would take my hands and he would, you know, just look at my small piece of the baptism, Clovis, and, well, that was a very special moment. And then when he came to inaugurate the monument, Those are fantastic people to meet in your life. They change your life like Dali well, my husband, of course, first of all. But so many personalities that enrich in your life because people are enriching your life.

Sarah Monk: 16:18

They do. What is the one lesson you learned from Dali or from the Pope or is there anything that

Daphné Du Barry: 16:24

Dali, I mean, you know, I could only listen to him because I, you know and this genius, you know. What I liked is what I miss nowadays. He was like an artist of the Renaissance. He he knew so much, know. You You could ask him anything and he would know because, you know, those people, like, in the Renaissance, they knew everything, you know.

Daphné Du Barry: 16:52

They would study philosophy, theology, other artists, then science. That’s that’s a huge lesson, you know, to know where we have to go on studying all our lives. You never finish. And, well, with the pope, what can I say, a lesson of of love from well, he is a representative of of, you know, of Christ on earth? When he came to paris, you know, for the youth, you know, it was a special journey for the youth.

Daphné Du Barry: 17:29

There were 1,000,000 young people from all over Europe. And then he said, don’t be afraid. Don’t be scared. Cry out your your your faith, you know, with your faith, with God, nothing can happen to you, you know, and it’s true. Nothing can happen to you.

Daphné Du Barry: 17:46

So I think that’s that’s a fantastic message.

Sarah Monk: 17:49

And your husband, I know, he was an art critic,

Daphné Du Barry: 17:52

you said? Yes. Right. Yes. He wrote about artists, journalists, art critic.

Daphné Du Barry: 17:57

So he always took me to a museum when we would travel all around the world, to New York or in Greece, you know, Madrid, Le Prado, all around the world. And that’s really the best way to to study art first, I think, before you put it in practice. You know, Goethe said, oh, that I have not drawn, I have not seen it. And it’s true. Once you start to draw, then you really have to look at things profoundly.

Daphné Du Barry: 18:30

At most of the people, they look, but they don’t see. Looking and seeing is very different. Because when you go and visit all the important museums in the world, your eye gets accustomed. You have to look and see through things. And when I started to draw, then even more.

Daphné Du Barry: 18:53

And sometimes it’s terrible, I look at people and I go right through them, you know? That’s that’s my professional well, profession deviation. At people. That’s the most important thing. You can look at things and not see them.

Daphné Du Barry: 19:14

You can listen to music and not hear it. How many people really see, listen, are able to listen, are able to see?

Sarah Monk: 19:26

I wanted to ask you, how is it for you to get faith in to a work of art, to to get that melding of faith and religiosity or I don’t even know what the word is.

Daphné Du Barry: 19:41

To bring the spiritual dimension into an artwork. Well, I pray a lot. I pray a lot. When I did, for example, when I do a holy virgin or any religious monument, I pray. And then I live in a different way.

Daphné Du Barry: 20:00

I eat less. I try to do like now we are in the epoch of karem. I don’t know how to say karem before Easter. A karem Lent. Lent.

Daphné Du Barry: 20:12

And then for certain monuments, you know, that’s what I do. And then I let let my hand guide, you know. I said, well, when I did my cries for the cathedral, I said, well, I speak directly, you know, to Christ. I said, well, what how would you like me to make you, you know? And I just let my hand guide, you know?

Daphné Du Barry: 20:36

Now I have to do this holy version And I received some graces for other people for whom I prayed a lot, a lot. And she gave that those graces. So I’m going to make this statue, which is, of course, I have to do it for church, but I’m almost going to make her for myself too. How would I say that? Thank thank her for those graces.

Sarah Monk: 21:11

Can you tell us about Daphnia?

Daphné Du Barry: 21:13

Where is he now? Daphnia, he is in Gascony where he’s born in Lyupiak. He was born in Lyupiak. And he was the captain of the musketeers at the shows of the king, Louis XIV. The Gascon, my husband was Gascon, they’re very fidel, faithful.

Daphné Du Barry: 21:38

And he died at the battle of Maastricht in the South Of Holland, and the king would cry when he died. Yeah. So his body was somewhere on a battlefield. They would never find it. And then very long time ago, I did this small model of Daphner Jan Horsebeck, which my husband, of course, loved a lot.

Daphné Du Barry: 22:09

And then the year that I lost my husband, that is ten years ago, I said to Jean Claude, you know what? I’m going to realize all the things that you still would have loved me to do. The Monument Of Daphnia. And I presented the this smaller model in Gascony to the mayor, and they loved it. And he said, yeah.

Daphné Du Barry: 22:36

That would be fantastic, but we need sponsors because can you imagine it’s had some huge cost. You know? And I believed so much in it. I said, well, I have to make this stat, you know. He said, okay, you find a sponsor.

Daphné Du Barry: 22:50

I said, well, I’m not gonna wait, you know. And then I met a man. When he saw my model, he started to cry and they said, I said, who are you? Well, I’m born here. And all my life, as a child, I was dreaming of a statue of Daphnia Horsebeck, and you were realizing my dream.

Daphné Du Barry: 23:11

I said, oh, this is fantastic. And he was the owner of the most important wine factory. So I just did this statue. When I finished it, the mayor called, she told me, a lady, she said, we’re going for it. And the wine well, Tariker is the name of it.

Daphné Du Barry: 23:33

They’re sponsoring the whole statue. I said, well, come out to Tuscany’s statue. It’s waiting for you. Okay. And there it was.

Daphné Du Barry: 23:41

And I did it for Jean Claude, and I said he would have loved this. So he is in Gascony, and and the owner, well, he says, this is a love story because I’ve been dreaming of this my whole life. I wanted this statue and now it’s there. It’s fantastic, no? And it was part of your love story too.

Daphné Du Barry: 23:59

Even more, it’s true. Daphnia, so the captain of the Musketeers, I made the face of my husband. Yes. I want to I want to immortalize my husband in the bronze and he is he has the face of the captain of the musketeers. And I choose bronze because I love the material.

Daphné Du Barry: 24:23

So the texture, it’s I think it’s beautiful. The you know, and with bronze you can give patinas. So I put on a clay and then my mold maker comes. He makes a mold, as I told you before. When the mold is done, he brings it to the foundry.

Daphné Du Barry: 24:41

And then foundry makes a wax model out of that, which I retouched totally. I control everything. And then we call it the lost wax that’s used to do the bronze casting. When the bronze is cast, I again look at everything, you know, because you have to retouch many things. And then comes the patina and and then it’s so so huge, you know, many steps to go.

Daphné Du Barry: 25:07

Mhmm. But fascinating. And I did another statue, which is very very strong. I did it a long time ago. I love children and even more because maybe because I don’t have children, just like that.

Daphné Du Barry: 25:30

And so I made a statue of the holy virgin, and she cries and she cries. And you have all those unborn babies. And I think that’s the statue where I most cried because I looked at all those little babies, how come my mother can’t desire this child, you know? And that was very terrible. But even women that have no faith, they tell me, oh, but this statue is so beautiful because the holy virgin, she’s also a mother, and she does not, judge.

Daphné Du Barry: 26:04

She’s just there. She laughs. She cries. And she takes those little babies. She protects them.

Daphné Du Barry: 26:12

I think that’s a statue where I most cried because I made seven babies because there are seven continents, you know, and seven is also very important. It’s a number of perfection, you know. How many times we ourselves, we do things in life, Jesus, I could have been nicer, I could have been kinder, why didn’t I say that, why didn’t I do this, why You know, because we are incansions. What I said before, we look but we don’t see. We listen to music but we don’t hear it really.

Daphné Du Barry: 26:50

That’s the same. We do things in our lives like Christ on the cross, said, Well, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing. That’s exactly it. My last word, we have to forgive always.

Daphné Du Barry: 27:03

Forgiveness.

Sarah Monk: 27:08

So thanks to Daphne Du Barry. You can see her work on her website, daphnedubarry.com. And thanks to you for listening. As with all episodes, you can find photographs of the work discussed on our website, materiallyspeaking.com, or on Instagram. If you’re enjoying Materially Speaking, subscribe to our newsletter on our website so we can let you know when the next episode goes live.